Africans in India: Rev. Pashington Obeng and the Siddi People

Reverend Pashington Obeng, Ph.D. is a Protestant minister and scholar, who was born and raised in Ghana, West Africa, and has been living and working in Massachusetts for more than 30 years. In 1998, he learned of a community of people of African descent, known as the Siddis, who have lived in India for more than 800 years. Some of their ancestors were brought to India as enslaved people, and some have continued to be burdened with working off the inherited debts of their ancestors through an Indian system known as "debt bondage."
In this episode of Higher Callings, Pash tells the story of the Siddi people, and describes some of the work that he and members of his church have done in support of the school for Siddi children run by Catholic nuns and Jesuit priests in Karnataka, India.
You can learn more about the Siddis at this website: https://africanindianalliance.org/
You can learn more about Pash here: https://hillschurch.org/church-staff/pash-obeng/
You can find Pash's book about the African presence in India here: https://www.amazon.com/Shaping-Membership-Defining-Nation-Cultural/dp/073911428X/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

Transcript

Higher Callings Podcast 
Interview of Rev. Pashington Obeng, Ph. D. 
Hosted by Donald R. Frederico 
Recorded September 3, 2021 

Introduction

Don: Reverend Pashington Obeng is a Protestant minister and retired professor who has lived and worked for many years in Wellesley, Massachusetts, but who hails from and frequently returns to Ghana in West Africa. During a research sabbatical in 1998, Pash traveled to India where he found a community of African descendants known as the Siddis. 

When Pash first encountered the Siddi people living in the Indian state of Karnataka, they immediately embraced him, recognizing him as one of their own. Since that time, he has made dozens of trips to India to spend time with the Siddi people and to support the work of the Catholic nuns and Jesuit priests who had formed a school to provide an education to the Siddi children and support the community's needs. 

I recently interviewed Pash about his work with the Siddis of Karnataka. I conducted the interview remotely as Pash was at a rural location in Ghana at the time, which may explain some of the sounds you will hear in the background. 

Pash: I was in charge of Christian Education. From zero to a hundred plus. And then I also helped to set up a men's group. And then . . . 

Don: I want to stop. I could hear the rooster. I just want people to know that's a rooster in Ghana. 

Pash: Precisely.

Don: What time of day is it there right now Pash? Why is a rooster crowing? 

Pash: Because it's about to rain and so the rooster thinks that it's already late. And so, roosters, as you know, have a cycle that prompts them to do what they do. 

So, and that tells you that I'm not in a high rise somewhere, you know, but rather in a place that has roosters and some other animals. 

Don: I'm Don Frederico and this is Higher Callings. 

The Interview 

Don: All right. I'm with my dear old friend, Reverend Pashington Obeng. Dr. Reverend Pashington Obeng. How are you today Pash? 

Pash: Fine, thank you. And you? 

Don: I'm doing well, thank you. Pash and I have known each other for more than 30 years now. We met each other through the Wellesley Hills Congregational Church. What location are you speaking from today? 

Pash: I am in Accra, Ghana, West Africa.

Don: And is that your home? Is that where you grew up? 

Pash: I am at home, home in the sense that I was born and raised in Ghana before I traveled outside of Ghana to study and work. 

Don: And when did you leave Ghana? 

Pash: I left in ‘81. When I left Ghana, I went to Canada to participate in Canadian Crossroads International program that involved people from different parts of the world arriving in Canada and being placed in different locations in agriculture and teaching, in animal husbandry. 

And so that was my first, uh, opportunity to work outside of Ghana. 

Don: So, you left in ’81. And I know I met you, was it ‘88 or ‘89 that you joined the Hills church in Wellesley, Massachusetts? 

Pash: August '89. 

Don: While you were a full-time pastor, associate pastor at the church, you also took on some teaching roles at some universities and colleges. When did you start doing that and which schools did you teach at? 

Pash: '92. 1992. I taught at Harvard. And I taught at the divinity school and also at the Afro-American Studies Center, after I had done my first post-doc. And then I started teaching '94 at Wellesley College and then taught later at Brandeis University on a fellowship. And towards the tail end of my teaching career, I also taught at Brown University. So, I was teaching diaspora studies, cinema studies, religion and culture of Africa, and Afro-Atlantic cultures and practices. 

Don: And this is a good segue into what I want to talk about next, which is the Siddis of India. When did you discover them and how did that relate to what you were teaching? 

Pash: As I was teaching the various courses, I had a sabbatical and each time that I was given a sabbatical at a university, I also worked with the church to help me to align the time away from the church, as well as from the educational institutions where I was. 

And it was during that period that a man from India had arrived in the United States, Boston in particular. And he and I just were having tea, coffee, no beer, but tea, coffee. And then he asked me what I was doing in addition to working at the church, because he had been influenced by Marxist ideologies. 

And so, he would do a presentation on the Christian and finances or the Christian and economics and so on. And so, during one of such meetings, I told him that I was going to start a sabbatical. And my plan was to go to a reservation somewhere in the United States or go to Canada because when I was studying, I had the opportunity to visit some of the Native Americans in Canada. 

It was then that he said, no, no, no. I should rather go to India where I will meet the real Indians and not American Indians. 

Don: So this was, let me stop you there for a second. This gentleman's name, his name was M.P. Joseph? 

Pash: M.P. Joseph. Yes. 

Don: And he was visiting at Andover Newton Theological Seminary. I remember that. Now I had mentioned that I had left the Wellesley Hills Church. I don't want people to get the wrong idea. I left because we had moved and we had joined a congregational church in a nearby town. And I think the congregational churches, at least those two churches, the one I came from and the one I had gone to, had a connection to . . . 

Pash: Andover Newton. 

Don: . . . some programming at Andover Newton involving M.P. Joseph. And I have a very vague memory of it, but I remember going to the seminary and meeting him and, along with other representatives from other churches. And I think you were probably there. 

Pash: Correct. 

Don: So he was the one that planted the idea in your mind about, if you want to find, what I guess is the right word, displaced Africans, descendants of Africans who had migrated to other countries, that he was telling you that there were African descendants in India, and maybe you should study those. 

Pash: Close, close. I say close because, in India, there are the Dalits. The Dalits form a group of people that are dark skinned and such Dalits in the Indian caste hierarchy, they are at the bottom of that system. And the Dalits for years had been asked to do the menial tasks in society. And so when I mentioned some of the courses that I have been teaching at these universities and wanted to go to what I called the American Indian communities, and he said, I should go to India, India in South Asia. 

And so, partly because of his encouragement. And it was then that I started asking people, reading, and I remember asking some colleagues at Harvard, Diana Eck and some other professors, whether they were aware of descendants of Africans in India, because they had been doing work there. I didn't get the response that I needed at Harvard. It was at MIT, a man who is no more called Omar Khalidi. Omar Khalidi was Indian from northern part of India who readily gave me some pictures and documents about descendants of Africans that have been in India for hundreds of years. So the information that I got from Omar Khalidi and M.P. Joseph just bolstered my determination to go to India. 

Don: Now, before you left for your first trip to India, did you know about the Siddis? 

Pash: No, I did not.

Don: So you went to India. Where did you go initially? 

Pash: I went to Kerala where M.P. Joseph hails from. And so, he took me to a monastery. And the monastery is a place where there is a particular group of Syrian Orthodox people that are trained to minister to their congregation. 

So their parishes. And so, it was a treat, tongue in cheek, because I arrived in Kerala at a place called Cochin. M.P. Joseph picked me up and took me straight to that monastery, and I got there and all the monks wore beard, in some dark clothes, long robes, and seriously minded. And I was given my room, and everything was, every ritual was performed in Syriac in India during that time. 

So 1990 . . .

Don: That's the language? Syriac is the language? 

Pash: It's the language, because it is believed that St. Thomas and other followers of Jesus had taken Christianity to parts of India. And so, St. Thomas was believed to have been killed on a mountain in India. So, there is a Syrian Orthodox Church, currently in India. And so, I was thrown into this community by M.P. Joseph, and he said he wanted me to get an experience in India before going on my own expedition of finding out about either the Dalits or descendants of Africans. 

I thought I was going to spend about a month at the monastery. But after two weeks, because of the austere living conditions, no meat, no ginger ale. That is the euphemism for beer. And no laughing and no . . . , I realized that that place was not good for me. So after two weeks . . . 

Don: You weren't in Wellesley, Massachusetts anymore. 

Pash: Precisely. You know, where I could stop by a friend's house and then they will offer me and I never refused, you know, that. I walked up to the head monk, the abbot, and then told him that I had arrived there on my own volition, and so I thought it was time for me to leave. And that was when M.P. Joseph had made some phone calls and contacted some friends of his, that also knew of the Siddis, the African descendants in India. And so, I began my journey there. 

Don: Good. And so that brings us to the all-important question. Tell us, who are the Siddis? What is their history? 

Pash: The Siddis are descendants of Africans that have been in the Indian sub- continent for over 800 years, because their forced and voluntary migration preceded the migration of Africans to the Americas. 

Don: How? 

Pash: The Omani Arab slave traders took some of the Africans from the Horn of Africa to Oman. Some went to Yemen, others to Iraq and Iran. And so the presence of Africans in the Middle East and then South Asia had been around for centuries before 300 years ago, 400 years ago. 

Don: But they were brought to those countries and those areas as slaves? 

Pash: Correct. Some were sent or taken there as enslaved people and others went as sailors or navigators, because when they arrived in present day Tanzania and Zanzibar and other places, some of the traders needed those that had been seafaring. And so that it was not just a group of enslaved people that arrived in Iraq and Iran and Turkey and Oman. Others were merchants and sailors in their own right. But then the bulk had been enslaved. 

Don: And so there was one group that went to India or maybe more than one group. And again, is that the same situation where most of them were slaves, but some of them were free? 

Pash: Correct. So, India is now populated by descendants of Africans who did not all come from one area and they didn't get there at the same time, because I said earlier that they had been in India for over 800 years. And some even got to Pakistan. In Pakistan, they are called Sheedis, S-H-E-E-D-I-S, while in India, they are Siddis, S-I-D-D-I-S or S-I-D-I-S. And so, they arrived in the subcontinent through a series or various forms of migrations. Forced and voluntary. 

Don: So tell us Pash about your discovery of the Siddis. 

Pash: The encounter that I had happened in 1998. After spending time in Kerala, which is the south most part of India and arriving in Karnataka, with the help of M.P. Joseph, I met a group of Siddis on a market day. And when they saw me, they seemed to have recognized something that brought us together, as I did. And so those that were traveling with me asked them why they were and why they were laughing or smiling. And I remember these words that came from one of them: "He is one of us." When I heard those words, they rang true at various levels for me. And I kept wondering: What? Who? When did these descendants of Africans arrive here? That was the beginning of my desire to get to learn more about them. As those, in their words, "He's one of us." 

Don: How did you do that? How did you go about learning more about them?

Pash: First through interpreters. 

As I was also learning Kannada, Hindi, Konkani. Konkani is a language that is spoken along the Konkan coast from parts of Mumbai to Goa and Mangalore and Bangalore areas. And they welcomed me and my friends in their own homes. And I think I mentioned it to you the other day that I went as a researcher, then it dawned on me that I couldn't just play with the surface of asking questions to write papers or books, but I was privileged to encounter their humanity. 

Through their hospitality and their preparedness to allow me to experience life alongside them, going with them to their farms. Those that were selling various items took me on their trips. I was invited to marriage ceremonies, to naming ceremonies, and to their funerals. And so, these were opportunities that pushed me beyond just an academic exercise. 

That's why I consider it as the moment of “encounters.” So, if we use the word “discovery,” I would say that it was self-discovery, mutual discovery, because they allowed me to discover certain aspects of my life, of being a pitiful cultural academic nomad, because I saw them as a people who, due to the powers that other people had, had been extracted from their natal communities into India. And for the people in Karnataka, it was only in April of 2013 that they were reclassified as scheduled tribespeople of India. 2013. 

Don: Okay. And they were somehow not a recognized tribal community? And that's what happened in 2013, is they became recognized by the Indian government as a tribal community? 

Pash: Yes. 

Don: I understand from conversations you and I have had over the years, and I was a member of the board of the organization you formed, for a few years, the “African Indian Alliance: a Siddi Partnership.” So, we worked together there, although I haven't been to India as other trustees or other directors of that organization have been. But my understanding is that the debts that were incurred by the ancestors carried forward and were still imposed on the current or some of the current Siddis in Karnataka. That they had certain obligations to perform work to pay off the debt that their grandparents or great-grandparents had incurred. Can you talk about that a little bit? 

Pash: Yes. In India, there is the practice called "debt bondage." So, although those who took them as enslaved people to India might not be around, there is this situation or phenomenon whereby the current generation of Siddis, as one travels from one family to another, could meet individual or individuals who  would say "We are still paying off the debt that this person claims a father or mother or our grandparents owed them." And so, by traveling from village to village and in forest areas, I met some young people working alongside their parents. 

And that prompted me to ask why those children were not in school. And it led me to the next step of then digging deeper and realizing that it's not their own debt, but rather inherited debts. So, as we speak, there are people that are seeking to address that issue in India. But for our situation specifically, we were able to identify certain children in rural India, and with the help of the Catholic nuns and the Jesuit priests, we started finding ways of assisting these parents and their children in just tearing them off their debt bondage. 

Don: Pash, was this system of debt bondage, did it apply only to descendants of Africans, or was it more widespread so that it wasn't based on race or national origin or anything like that? 

Pash: No. Widespread in India. And you and your listeners will know that virtually every year, some farmers end their lives because of debt. And the debt can result from a number of places. 

Some that a farmer's parent might have borrowed money from a rich person or from a bank or from somebody else and used to buy crops, right? Seedlings, also. And when that person dies, the debt is not written off forever. There were situations where we met a couple that had been paying off the debt that that man's father had incurred during his lifetime. And so, we were compelled to ask for documentation. 

This was when we chanced upon a ridiculous situation that I think during one of our meetings, AIA meetings, I brought it up. When we asked for the documents, the document that the wife brought was x-ray results that had been printed on. Why? Because the creditor took the woman's husband to the hospital for x-rays and so on and held on to that document. And when we put pressure on that family to give us paper documentation regarding the debt, what that person, the creditor, gave the woman was an envelope containing the x-ray results. And the woman, not understanding what that entailed, gave the documents to us. 

And so, I took the document, then we got to the convent. And so, the sisters and the priest and I looked at the documents and said, "This says nothing about how much the debt was." This is one example. There are many examples where we've seen people put to work making bricks. Why? Because of their own debts or the debts of their forebears. So, is it clear now? 

Don: I think so. So now let me ask this question. What is the social standing of people like the Siddis? Now let's talk about the Siddis specifically. What is their social standing within India? 

Pash: Today, because they have been reclassified as scheduled tribal people, the central government and the state government recognize them as those that are entitled to some form of education, food ration, including sugar or flour, and then they should bear or carry certificates of identification. So that on given days they could go to a municipal office and claim some amount of sugar or soap or flour. And then if they understand and have people helping them, they could go and say that we have children that need to be enrolled at a particular school. So, others call that the, just like a token of saying "We are allowing you a percentage of spots so that you could have your children educated." 

But let me nuance it. The Siddis have Hindus, Christians, Muslims, and none of the above. 

Don: But they're all of African descent, correct? 

Pash: Exactly, exactly. And those that are Hindu, by virtue of their religion, still belong to the Hindu caste system. Therefore, in the Hindu caste system, if they, non-original citizens of India, have now been reclassified as tribal people, they are at the bottom of the caste system. Then those that have become Christian or Muslim are considered minorities in India. 

And so, when it comes to preferential treatment, the Christians and the Muslims are standing alongside the Hindu who are Siddis, because all of them belong to the tribal group. And so, they do not have as equal opportunity or equitable opportunity as non-African people in India. And by virtue of their complexion, wherever they go, they stand out. And people today still consider them as, "When did you arrive from Africa?” “Are you from South Africa?” “Are you from Tanzania?” or “Are you Jamaican?” They still are asked such questions when they go outside of their enclaves to the larger society. 

Don: Now, what does that mean for the education of the children? 

Pash: So, the churches, partnering with the Wellesley Hills Church, have succeeded in educating a select number of children and now adults by creating spaces where these children receive their education. And then when they reach, say, 10th standard or finish high school, they are led, encouraged, advocated for, to enter other spaces that previously were out of bounds by virtue of their ethnicity or race or caste.  

This is why today, through AIA and through your intervention, the Wellesley Hills Church, alongside other people, have succeeded in educating some lawyers, some teachers, nurses, and then musicians, who are also finding ways of helping, recruiting other Siddis to go to school. 

Don: What is the Siddis' life like today? How do they live? What are their houses like? What do they do for money? Do their children at certain ages have to begin working and leave school? Tell us about all of those things. 

Pash: The drop-out rate is relatively high among the Siddi children, because when they reach a certain level, without financial assistance, they are not able to continue to college level. So those that have been supported or have others that will provide some financial aid to them are the only ones that are able to advance beyond a certain level of education in rural areas. The majority of Siddis in all the states in India live in rural areas. It's just few that live and now work in the major cities. The majority of them labor and work as agricultural laborers or construction workers or harvesters of coconut in those areas. 

Don: So, it's a life of relative poverty.

Pash: Correct. 

Don: And you mentioned the school and you mentioned the priests and the nuns. Can you tell us about the school in Karnataka that has been providing an education for some of these children and that the Wellesley Hills Church has also been supporting? 

Pash: Yes. There are hostels that the sisters and the priests built in order to help children from poor families. And the priests and the nuns started work amongst the Siddis in 1997. And since then, they have been focusing on providing education and social help to those children. So, what the Hills Church did was to reinforce the work that had started amongst the nuns, the nuns, Sisters of Mercy of the Holy Cross, sisters or nuns. And then the Jesuit priests. And both groups do emphasize education. Education is paramount to them in their mission. So, the mission of the Wellesley Hills did tally or dovetail with what the priests and the nuns had been doing since 1997. 

Don: And so, because of that work of the priests and the nuns, as well as the support provided by AIA and the Wellesley Hills Church, there are children who would not have received an education, at a certain level, who were able to continue their education, and some that have gone on to university and some that have become lawyers and teachers and other professions, as you mentioned earlier. 

Pash: Yes. Correct. And so, thanks to, again, you Don, when we were putting a constitution, by-laws together, it was through your help that you gave us someone that could assist us in drawing up all those documents to qualify for nonprofit or not-for-profit organization. 

Don: Right. I think some of my colleagues or one of my colleagues assisted in preparing the 501(c)(3) application and the formation documents for AIA, which means people, if anyone is so inclined, can make donations to AIA. 

Is AIA still supporting the Siddis? And I know there have been some changes that have taken place, that you briefly described to me one time. How has their situation changed in the last year or two? 

Pash: As a result of the intervention of what AIA does there, now some of the Siddis have become our partners on the ground who are also going from village to village and encouraging parents, educating them about the importance of education. And so, they work alongside the sisters and the priests. Further, there are some of them that on their own go to other villages to serve as role models to say that "We come from this place. And today I am a pharmacist" or "I am a lawyer." And a fun fact. One of the lawyers set up a law firm in the capital of Karnataka, which is Bangalore. And guess the people that he serves in addition to Siddis. African immigrants. 

Don: So there are still Africans who are immigrating to India? 

Pash: And studying or working. And so, a law firm that has Siddis, providing legal assistance to people that have recently arrived from continental Africa. And thanks again to the work that you and the others began because who would have thought that? And so, they serve Siddis, Africans, you know, recent Africans, as well as non-Siddis and non-Africans in the capital. 

Don: That's wonderful. So, you've seen success stories. But I also remember, hasn't the government become involved in the school now? Instead of it just being a parochial school, it's now a public school of some sort? 

Pash: Because, depending on which regime, okay, is in power in India, there are those that, in light of what has been said or argued in India's constitution, conversion is a no-no. Conversion is a no-no. Therefore, certain religious organizations are looked upon as suspect. And so, suspect. 

Don: Conversion from Hinduism? 

Pash: Exactly, exactly. And so, all of a sudden, some representatives of the municipal government informed the nuns that, one, they had to close their dispensary unless they had a resident doctor. They knew that the nuns had one nurse or two nurses, but they could not afford to have a resident doctor. 

Number two, they were running nursery schools, kindergarten, and they were told that, with a new logic, children need to spend more time with their parents and not be put in schools run by nuns and priests. Therefore, they should rather be allowed to go to schools that are run by the government. And in rural India, the quality or caliber of background of education of some of those teachers doesn't come close to trained teachers like the nuns and the priests have. And so, we understand the unstated motive or the logic, the unstated logic, is to find ways of disempowering the nuns and the priests so that other systems could be set up for the training of people. 

Not only that. In the hostels, the priests and the nuns use English in addition to providing instruction in the local languages. Karnataka is one of the states where all students are supposed to be given instruction using Kannada. That is the regional language. And any school that was found to be using English as medium of instruction was going to be penalized. 

So, my point is the strategies are many, but fortunately the priests and the nuns are adaptable, they are creative, and always find some ways of saying "If we can't ride on this wave, we will set up playrooms. We will find ways of responding to snake bites.” And so on. 

Don: You've been working with the Siddis now for . . .

Pash: 23. 

Don: . . . 23 years. I was doing the math in my head. You were a little faster at it. 23 years, since 1998. How has it changed you? 

Pash: I have come to a place in my life that says my life is intertwined with the lives of other people. Because, although at the beginning I went to India as a pretend scholar, I have come to appreciate what rootlessness or nomadic life can mean to people due to their own making or the making of other people. But this existential condition of being in no person's land and every person's life has had a greater meaning to me.  

And earlier I had said "Today, I'm able to walk. I'm able to participate in various activities because of the training that I have received." And I'm grateful for that. But tomorrow, if I fell ill and I couldn't do what I'm doing now, it is because of my trips to India and the readiness of the people, the Siddis, to receive me and point me to positions or locations of vulnerability, I approach them as people that have helped me to understand the sacredness of vulnerability. And as a human being, it is when we work hand-in-hand with others, because of our vulnerability, that we can grow. So I have become transformed. I have understood nomadic life. And I can tell others of the transience of the human experience. 

I have learned to negotiate my way in environments where the people do not have much at all. But it is that which has compelled me to say that when you give them respect, they will reciprocate the respect so that the dialogue will continue. And I think that lesson can apply to every person everywhere. But the underscoring part is “How did you not have much?” They appear to be vulnerable. But in that vulnerable state, they exude strength of hospitality, of seeking to understand me, as I have also tried to. 

And I remember occasions when I switched off my cameras, my tape recorders, in order to pay attention to where they truly were sitting. And this also gave me another sense of how we sometimes run our lives of becoming enslaved by being time-conscious. But by so doing, we do not allow the spirit to break in for us to experience the humanity of the people in whose presence we are privileged to sit.