Bob and Diane Frankle: Building Bridges Across Religious Divides

Too often, the adherents of one religion understand very little about the traditions of another. In our efforts to promote peaceful coexistence, we often refrain from discussing our religious beliefs and traditions with members of different faiths. Our silence in explaining our religious upbringings and practices to people of different backgrounds perpetuates a lack of understanding and imposes barriers that separate members of one faith from members of another. 

In 2013, Bob and Diane Frankle, an interfaith couple who live in the San Francisco Bay Area, decided to do something about that. They started a program called Building Bridges that brought Christians and Jews together to share their faith experiences and traditions. They recently have expanded the program, now called Interfaith Bridges, to include Muslims as well. In this episode, I interview Bob and Diane about their experience as an interfaith couple and about the program of interfaith dialogue they have launched through their new nonprofit, Building Bridges Together. 

You can learn more about Building Bridges Together and its Interfaith Bridges programs at its website, https://www.buildingbridgestogether.net/

If you have enjoyed the Higher Callings podcast, you might also enjoy Don's Substack Newsletter, Reflections of a Boston Lawyer, which you can find here: https://donaldfrederico.substack.com/

Transcript

Don: Too often, the adherents of one religion understand very little about the traditions of another. In our efforts to promote peaceful coexistence, we often refrain from discussing our religious beliefs and traditions with members of different faiths. Our silence in explaining our religious upbringings and practices to people of different backgrounds perpetuates a lack of understanding and imposes barriers that separate members of one faith from members of another.

In 2013, Bob and Diane Frankle, an interfaith couple who live in the San Francisco Bay area, decided to do something about that. They started a program called Building Bridges that brought Christians and Jews together to share their faith experiences and traditions. They recently have expanded the program, now called Interfaith Bridges, to include Muslims as well. 

In this episode, I interview Bob and Diane about their experience as an interfaith couple and about the program of interfaith dialogue they have launched through their new nonprofit, Building Bridges Together. 

Diane: It was really in 2012 that we started to turn around and look at our friend groups. So here we were, empty nesters, looking not so much at the friends you make when your kids are in school, which are all friends of your, your children's friends, right? But our own separate set of friends. And they, for the most part, were people from either the synagogue or the church. 

And one day Bob turned to me and said, "You know, we have this wonderful group of friends from Beth Am, and we have this wonderful group of friends from All Saints, and it seems like, they don't know each other, but there's like a little bridge that runs between the two communities through our house. And I'd really like to make that into more of a superhighway. You know, we should really get our friends to know each other and see that they're so similar in their values and their faithfulness to God." And that's really when we started to think about interfaith dialogue for the two communities, 

Don: I'm Don Frederico, and this is Higher Callings.

I'm with Diane and Bob Frankel, who are in Menlo Park, California. Hello, Bob and Diane. 

Diane: Hi, Don. How are you? 

Don: I'm doing great. Thanks Diane. Bob, it's good to see you again. 

Bob: Yeah. Hi Don. It's great to be with you this morning on this beautiful, beautiful day. 

Don: I was just going to say you have a beautiful window behind you and it looks like it's a very sunny day there. 

Bob: It is. 

Don: Thank you both for joining me for Higher Callings. As you know, I want to talk to you about this exciting project you have going on, Building Bridges Together, which is a new nonprofit that you formed for the purpose of promoting interfaith dialogue. And we're going to get into a lot of the details about that in a few minutes. Before we do, though, I thought it would be really useful to talk about your backgrounds, and how they are relevant to your decision to launch this new nonprofit.

So, Diane, let me start with you. You and I go back a long time. We were college students together at the College of Wooster. We were a year apart, but we knew each other. We have mutual friends, and we both had an interest in a legal career. And as you know and we've talked about, the College of Wooster at the time was a Presbyterian liberal arts college, which I think, at least for me, part of the attraction of the college was its religion department. That was something I wanted to study. I don't know if that was also one of the attractions for you. But could you talk a little bit about your religious background going into college, coming out of college, and how that influenced your decision to go to law school. 

Diane: Sure Don. And yes, I remember our time together very fondly. 

When I was at Wooster, I was Presbyterian. I'd been raised a Presbyterian and I remained very active while I was in college. And you might remember that we spent some time together reading a wonderful set of books by a guy named William Stringfellow, who was Episcopalian and also a lawyer. And he talked about how his faith really influenced how he looked at his profession and social action in the world. It made a really big impact on me, and it was one of the reasons I wanted to go to law school, was to make a difference in the world. 

I wound up at Georgetown, and I remember fondly actually showing you around the school when you were graduating from college a year behind me. And so we got a chance to spend some time together one very nice day. 

But while I was in law school, I actually moved from the Presbyterian Church to the Episcopal Church. It turned out the two churches were both within walking distance of my apartment. The Presbyterian church had six old ladies sitting in the pew the day I came. The Episcopal church was full of 30- and 40-year-olds. It was a very active church, right on Capitol Hill. St. Mark's Church. And I just fell in love with both the liturgy, but also their view of seeking Christ in every human that they met and seeking the dignity of every human being.

I think those are really important things for the Episcopal Church. And so I moved over to that as my new faith community. 

Don: That's a very powerful message. And I suspect it's a message that's also very familiar to Presbyterians, though neither one of us is a Presbyterian, so it's hard to comment on that.

Diane: Oh, I think that's right. I think that's right. It's just, I really felt it in the church that I was in, so yeah, you're exactly right. 

Don: I'll put it in a little plug too. You mentioned Bill Stringfellow. You're the second person on my podcast to mention William Stringfellow. Our friend, Denise Reilly, a judge in Minneapolis, was also on the podcast, and she went to college with us. She was in your class. And also during my interview, she mentioned Stringfellow as an influence. And he was very influential to me at the time, too. So it's very interesting. 

Diane: I think that the three of us and Kevin, her husband, all read Bill Stringfellow together. So that's amazing that that time was so influential for all of us.

Don: Well, the missing piece, and I don't want to belabor this, but was he actually came to campus and stayed there for several weeks as a, I think they called it lay theologian in residence. So,we not only read his book, but we actually met him and had a chance to have conversations with him and hear him speak.

So, anyway, that's a story for another time. So, talk a little bit about where you went from law school, from Georgetown law in Washington, DC. You know, when I went to law school, I knew I wanted to be a litigator, but that wasn't the case for you. What were your ambitions and how did your faith influence those ambitions.

Diane: Well, I actually did start out as a litigator. I went from Georgetown to be a law clerk for a federal district judge up in the District of Maryland. And then I came back to the law firm where I had been kind of a winter clerk, if you will, and was an associate there for three years. And, it was in my first year as an associate that, as a litigator, that I realized that I didn't really enjoy litigation at all.

I love to write. So that was a good match. But I didn't like the contentiousness of it. And the fact that other people were always trying to one up me. What I really liked was the idea of getting people together. And I became a corporate lawyer while I was in DC, focused on both transactions and securities law compliance, but really making a difference to businesses by bringing people together in transactions. That was something that really was exciting to me. 

We moved in 1984 out to Silicon Valley, and it turned out that that was a perfect place for me because they were really looking for corporate associates at that time. It was the launching of Silicon Valley really as an engine of innovation and exciting companies.

And I, as a securities lawyer, and a corporate lawyer got to participate in all of that growth and spent my whole career really working on bringing companies together in mergers. And then because of that, working with boards of directors, and really helping boards figure out how they needed to respond to the different crises, all sorts of different things that were going on in companies at that time.

So that was my career, and it was really a very fun one. 

Don: And I know you were very successful at it, and you practiced law for about as long as I've been practicing law. And retired, when? Last year? Two years ago?

Diane: I retired at the end of 2018 and I left the partnership at the end of 2015. So, then the last three years I was just making sure that the practice that I had created at my new firm out here in Silicon Valley, was well situated and successful before I completely left the practice at the end of 2018. 

Don: So now I heard, when you mentioned the move to the west coast, you said we moved to Silicon Valley. So I take it Bob came into the picture at some point before the move. Is that who you were referring to when you said "we"? 

Diane: He did. He did. We met during my law school. His brother, his younger brother, is my best friend from law school.

Bob was living in California at the time, and never planning to move back to the East Coast. He had grown up in the DC area where I was, but, and that's how I got to know his brother. But he and I happened to meet at his brother's law school graduation, actually. And the rest is history, as they say. I'll turn it over to Bob.

Don: Well, Bob, I'll bring you into the conversation now. So, as long as I've known Diane, I haven't really known that much about that story. What was interesting about you two getting married, at least interesting to me, but also very relevant to what we're going to talk about, is that you were from a very different faith tradition.

I shouldn't say very different. There's a lot of overlap and a lot of similarities. But can you say something about your own religious background, either at the time you met Diane, before that, or later in life? 

Bob: So, I grew up in a conservative Jewish family. We attended services for Shabbat and for holidays and observed holidays in our home.

We had a large extended family, and celebrated holidays with aunts, uncles, great aunts, great uncles, and many, many cousins. And I enjoyed all of that. I always enjoyed Judaism. I even enjoyed going to what was called Hebrew school back then, which most people did not. I was very active in Jewish youth organization and I had the opportunity in 1965 to spend nine weeks in Israel on a Jewish youth trip and had an amazing, amazing experience.

Subsequently I went to college at Georgia Tech in Atlanta, where I encountered people that were very different from those who I had grown up with. They were Christians from the South, South Georgia, Mississippi. And I think I was the first Jewish person they had ever really encountered, and they were really the first Christians that I had encountered.

In my sophomore year, I actually lived in an apartment with three of these people. We figured out how to come together and form a household. And we shared our traditions. I taught them about Judaism and Jewish food and things like that, and they taught me about Christianity and their traditions.

Don: So, so you were already engaging in interfaith dialogue even as a college student. 

Bob: Yeah, I was. I just didn't know it. I was just trying to get along because, when you find yourself in that environment, you have to figure out how to co-exist. And it was okay. 

Don: So the two of you met in Washington, DC, I gather, and obviously fell in love, decided to get married. What's the conversation like? I mean, about how you're going to create a merger of people from two different faiths. [Diane laughs.] Yeah, no pun intended. But how you're going to be a couple when your faith traditions are so different and are so important to you at the same time.

Diane: So maybe I'll take a crack at that first and tell you that we basically only had one date. We met, as I say, at Bob's brother's law school graduation. We spent a week together just running around town with his brother showing Bob all of the fun things that we used to do as law students in DC.

And then he went back home to California and I thought I'd never see him again. We were both involved with other people at the time. It turned out during the summer, both of us broke up with those people and he sent me a note and said he was coming back to the DC area for a conference. And we went out on one date while he was there.

And from then he called me every day from California until he came back two weeks later. And two weeks later, he took me away to Chincoteague, which is a barrier island, the Assateague Islands in Maryland and Virginia, about a few hours from DC. We sat on a sand dune together, kind of similar to where you are, I think in Cape Cod, and told each other our life stories.

And we realized, he said to me, "You know, if I didn't know any better, I'd ask you to marry me." And I said, "If I didn't know any better, I'd say yes." And that was basically it. And that conversation included a lot about our respective faiths, because as you can tell, they're both very important to us. And the only question I really was concerned about was, was it okay for us if we live together to have seafood and pork. And Bob was okay with that.

And, you know, we decided not to actually think about how to raise children at that time, but we knew that we would be able to learn from each other and respect each other's faith. So, I'll turn it over to Bob to say whatever he wants. But I think our view was, we loved each other and that was all we really needed to know.

We had family that may or may not have been as comfortable with this person coming from a completely different experience. 

As someone who grew up Catholic, I can say even just marrying a Protestant can create issues, although fortunately in my family it really didn't. But Bob, what do you want to add to the story that you just heard from Diane? Do you remember it the way she does? 

Bob: Oh yeah. Absolutely. And so there's a word in the Jewish tradition, bashert, bashert. A person is your bashert, which means your intended, the one you're supposed to be with. And I've always said from the very beginning that Diane was my bashert. And I believe that with all my heart.

The other thing I wanted to point out was that, in our conversation, and keeping in mind that we kept talking to each other every night for two or three hours from September to April, and actually, I was going bankrupt paying AT&T, that, although we were not together, we got to learn a lot about each other.

And what we discovered was that, although we were different faiths, we were from different faith traditions, we were not that different. Our basic values were pretty much the same. And I think that's what's really, really important. And the fact that there are some beliefs that Diane holds that I do not has really not impeded our relationship over the years.

Don: That's great. So let me try to move this on a little bit. Now Diane, we talked about you being a lawyer. Bob, you're not a lawyer. Your background is in engineering. And then you were director of marketing at a company, correct? 

Bob: Right. So, I got a degree in aerospace engineering. And recall, I was in Atlanta at Georgia Tech and I got a job offer from Lockheed in Sunnyvale, California, which is about five or 10 miles from here, from where we live.

So, I came to the San Francisco Bay area. I'd never been here before and I decided that I loved it and I really never intended to leave. So, I worked at Lockheed and then I left Lockheed to marry Diane and moved back to the DC area. And there I worked for a company that was involved in tactical missiles. So, I became a rocket scientist. 

Don: Okay. You're the literal rocket scientist. 

Bob: I am the rocket scientist. By the way, I should mention that while I worked at Lockheed, they were kind enough to send me to Stanford University where I got a master's degree in material science. 

So, I worked at the tactical missile company. Then in '84, when we moved back to the Bay Area, I worked for a consulting firm. And then finally, a company involved in industrial x-ray inspection. And for about the last 15 years of my career, I was a global marketing director. 

Don: Now, during those years, when you were both still working, you also were maintaining your two different religious traditions. Talk a little bit, if you would please, about your involvement in your various congregations. 

Diane: Well, we're both very active in our congregations, but of course, while we were working, less so. We are blessed to have two sons, and our boys, we decided, when our first son was born, that we would raise our children as Jews.

We actually went through two classes with a wonderful program called Lehrhaus Judaica, both an introduction to Judaism and a comparison course between Christianity and Judaism. And I learned the values of the Jewish faith were so similar to the Christian faith, which makes sense, of course, because they're both what we call Abrahamic religions.

And so they both, Christianity is actually grown out of Judaism, as you know. Jesus was a Jew. And so I felt very comfortable with the values of Judaism, and we decided to raise both our children as Jews. So our religious life tended to center on the synagogue, as far as making sure the kids got their training, they both of course went to Hebrew school. They both were bar mitzvah. They both were confirmed as Jews in our synagogue. And that was really important to us. 

At the same time though, I continued very actively in my Episcopal church here, All Saints Episcopal in Palo Alto, and was I've actually served on the vestry, their governing board, three different times. I've been on two different search committees for rectors. I'm very active in that church. 

Don: And you were while you were working too. 

Diane: I was, I was, although I would say there was about a ten-year period, as you can imagine, Don, because you have kids too, you know, between practice, which was very busy, and family life, I probably was less active for a certain period of my time, but really focused on getting the kids through their religious formation in the synagogue. But still very involved.

We got a lot out of those faith communities. I would say though, that it was after our children both went to college, so we became empty nesters in the end of 2010, beginning of 2011, and that's really when we started to get much more involved in both of our communities.

So, Bob can tell you a little bit about that. 

Bob: Yeah, I would say that early on in our marriage, we were members of All Saints. We did not join a synagogue until before, just before, our first child was born in '87. And yet, you know, I was going to church with Diane and no big deal for me.

I liked to sing the hymns as well as anybody. So, but you know, still observing holidays in the home and going to services locally. And, as Diane said, when the kids were infants, they went to church with us on Sunday morning until they started going into the synagogue youth education program.

And then Diane would go to church on Sunday morning and I would take our son or sons to the synagogue for their education. 

Don: And what did this interfaith Frankle family do to celebrate holidays? Were you celebrating both Jewish and Christian holidays? 

Diane: We celebrated everything. We had Christmas, and the kids understood Christmas. We had Easter, the kids understood Easter. I tended to stay away from a lot of the secular part of those holidays and focus more in the home on things that were meaningful to me. And then of course we had all of the home holidays, Seders, and all the Jewish, Hannukah was very important.

So, I think our children really respect Christianity, but they're very secure in being Jews. And I think it's important to note that we really believe that it was important for the kids to have a faith. There are people who decide they'll let the children choose, or they'll try to raise them as both. We didn't agree with that and felt like it was really important for the children to have that background. 

And I think, Don, you'll understand that the Jewish holidays and the Jewish observance requires a certain amount of language facility. You have to have a certain amount of Hebrew. You have to know the prayers. It takes a certain amount of study to be able to really fit in and feel like you are part of those traditions. So, we picked Judaism in part because we thought it was the core of Christianity, and it's also important for the kids to have that background, to be able to fit into all the family holidays.

So, family holidays are really important for, home holidays, for Judaism. Things like Seder and Hanukkah, and you wouldn't be able to participate fully if you didn't have that kind of background. 

Don: Well, I think that makes a ton of sense. And, you know, I think what I hear you saying is that you thought it was important, not only because there was in a sense more to learn and language issues in Judaism, but also you kind of made the decision that you wanted to have your children have roots planted deep in a tradition ...

Diane: Exactly. 

Don: ...rather than more shallow roots across multiple traditions.

So that makes perfect sense to me. 

While you were worshiping in the synagogue and at the Episcopal church, and I know you still are, so I don't really mean to put that in the past tense, but at some point, did you begin to have interfaith dialogue within either of those settings? And if so, what was your role in facilitating those interfaith dialogues?

Bob: So, at the synagogue, there were programs where they had like a panel discussion of people from different faith traditions. So the synagogue we belong to, Congregation Beth Am, we estimate is about one-third interfaith marriage. And so there's a lot of people who are not Jewish. And yet they're still welcome and a very valuable part of the congregation.

Diane: And then we went on a wonderful trip after we were empty nesters to Israel with a group of folks from our synagogue. And we became very close friends. And as I say, I had not been so involved with the synagogue other than just making sure that our kids had the right faith formation experiences and supporting them and their various requirements and going to services with them and things like that.

But that was our first time to really form close relationships, in 2011, with a group of really mostly active participants at our synagogue. When we came back from that, we continued those friendships. We also became probably more involved with our church. I had started a dinner group a few years before that, and we became very close friends with people in this 20, 25, 30- person dinner group.

And it was really in 2012 that we started to turn around and look at our friend groups. So here we were empty nesters, looking not so much at the friends you make when your kids are in school, which are all friends of your, your children's friends, right? But our own, like, separate set of friends and they, for the most part, were people from either the synagogue or the church.

And one day Bob turned to me and said, "You know, we have this wonderful group of friends from Beth Am and we have this wonderful group of friends from All Saints. And it seems like they don't know each other, but there's like a little bridge that runs between the two communities through our house.

And I'd really like to make that into more of a superhighway. You know, we should really get our friends to know each other and see that they're so similar in their values and their faithfulness to God. And that's really, when we started to think about interfaith dialogue for the two communities, 

Don: It really just evolved out of the life you were living.

Diane: Exactly. 

Don: And then the light bulb going off with Bob that, hey, why don't we formalize this in some way? 

Diane: Yeah. So, Bob, maybe you could tell Don a little bit about how we started our actual foray into interfaith dialogue. 

Don: Well, you anticipated my next question, Diane. Go ahead Bob. 

Bob: Well, I do think it's important to understand that I've always considered myself very fortunate and blessed because I have so many wonderful friends and communities in both the church and the synagogue, whereas people who are only with the synagogue or with the church are missing out on that other half. So, Diane's exactly right. We wanted to find a way to build a bridge through our house to bring these two communities of friends of ours together. 

And so, in 2012, we started to formalize that idea, and we created a program for interfaith dialogue, which we called Building Bridges. And it was a labor of love. It was based on some existing materials, but primarily from our own thoughts about bringing people together and how you can build understanding and friendship between people of different faiths, in this case, Christians and Jews.

And we came up with this program, Building Bridges, which was five, three-hour sessions. Each session included a shared meal because we thought, when you share a meal, that's the way you build friendship, and facilitated discussion on questions about religious faith and practice. And we had no idea if this was going to be successful or a complete flop.

And I remember to this day, greeting the first group of what we called Bridge Builders, the participants we called Bridge Builders, and not knowing. You know, we were hopeful that it would be successful, but we didn't know. And after the end of the first program, we knew that we had created something that was important. It was successful and the people absolutely loved it. The people who participated. 

Don: How many people were in this first group and where did you meet? 

Diane: It was a 24 of us. Our program, we've designed it to be generally for about 24 people, plus facilitators from each of the represented faiths. So two, usually two facilitators in the early days from the Jewish and Christian faith. And so almost 30 people in the room when people arrive. And I think that's important because it gives people a sense that they're not alone. That it's an important program. That there's enough of a group of people together so that it's going to be an experience, right? 

And we really felt like we were growing a program. This first program over these sessions told us that the people entered the room as strangers and left as friends. And the comments we got from them showed that they really appreciated the dialogue that they had with each other. 

We've never asked our participants to come as experts in their faith. We ask them to come and be their authentic selves and just be willing to share their experiences, their beliefs, their faith, and listen to the other. And what people find out, of course, is that we share a lot. And the things that we don't share are interesting. That, you know, it's an interesting different perspective, and it gives people a different perspective on their own faith.

Don: Did you have resources that you drew upon, so that if there were questions about one or the other religious tradition, you had a way to try to help answer those questions? Other than your own experiences, the experiences of the people in the room?

Bob: So, as Diane said, the discussion centered around the experiences of the participants. And so, there weren't so many questions about, well, you know, what does Judaism say about this? Or what does Judaism do? What is the practice or the belief? If someone had a question, they would go to that participant and speak with them and say, "Hey, I heard you say something about blah-blah-blah. Could you tell me more?"

So, it was, the experience was more like that than actually questions about practice or belief within Judaism or Christianity. 

Don: So, it wasn't so much, what do Jews believe? What do Christians believe? It was more about the experience of living in those traditions? 

Bob: Well, it wasn't, yeah, it was more about what do you believe? When people, for example, people at the church say, well, "What do Jews believe about this, that or the other," I always say, "Which Jews are you talking about?" And the only one that I can speak for is me. And that's the basis for the program. 

Don: And you can ask that same question of Christians. There are so many varieties of Christian experience as well. 

Bob: Right. And our participants learn that neither Judaism nor Christianity are monolithic. And that's one of the great lessons that comes out of the experience. 

Don: They're monotheistic, but not monolithic. 

Diane: Very good, Don. That's good. 

But I also think, as we did this program, and the program Bob describes, Building Bridges, we've actually done seven times. We've had more than 160 participants go through those programs. We've done it with four different churches and two different synagogues here locally. And one of the things that we heard relatively often as a comment from our participants is that they would like a little bit more context, a little bit more information about the faiths. And we also wanted to make sure that we gave people a little bit more depth as they were having these questions.

So, it did start out with kind of less background. The program we've now created, I think, answers that need a bit more. 

Don: So what came out of this? I mean, what was the outcome of this original several sessions, several programs? I guess you did this over a number of years, from 2013 until more recently. What was the outcome? What were the benefits that you saw from this?

Diane: As we said, we had about 160 people go through this program. But one of the first things we found out was that people who went through the program had really developed strong friendships and they wanted to continue them. And so, we've had over, and we've done this program, this earlier program, over eight years, I guess, right? From 2013 through 2020. The last program ended right before the pandemic and those people wanted to continue.

So, we developed an alumni program. And so many of the people who were participants in the earlier program continued on, studying with each other in different topics that we brought them together. We had people from the programs actually start attending scripture study at each other's places of worship.

So, Beth Am has a very strong Torah study program, and Christians from our Building Bridges program began attending Torah study. But equally, our Jewish friends joined a program over at All Saints studying the New Testament, and read the entire New Testament together. And sometimes there were more Jews in that class than there were Christians, which was fantastic for the Christians, because the fresh questions that come up when you've got people learning about a new faith made that a really lively and very, very engaging class.

But maybe more importantly, we found out that, when there were crises, when there were things that happened, and, you know, goodness knows there's enough of these things that happen in the world, for example, the Tree of Life shooting in Pittsburgh, the synagogue. We had a completely full sanctuary at the synagogue on the day after that shooting. And I would say at least 50 of our Bridge Builders showed up from Christian churches to be with us, to mourn the loss of lives and to pray for peace. 

We had people showing up at the church for various social action activities. Our rabbi reached out when something happened in the public schools that was very anti-Semitic and asked if our Christian Bridge Builders might be able to send letters, you know, support to the principal because the principal is under attack for having supported freedom of religion for our Jewish students. And many of us wrote letters for that. So, allyship, support, and solidarity, and just a sense of being able to study together and learn new things together.

I think those to me are the things that grew out of it that made us want to take this program. And I think the bottom line is, we realized we needed this program to be available to Christians and Jews across the country. And we couldn't do that the way we were offering it as very much of a local program. We needed to create a program that could be delivered across the country, where we could train people to do our program across the country, and where we were able to engage people where we didn't have to be in front of them, teaching them how to do the program.

Don: So, tell us about that. So, you decided at some point to kind of take this program further, and what you're describing now, Diane, is expanding geographically. But you were also expanding it theologically, or in terms of adding another faith tradition. So where did the idea come from and what was the idea that you hatched.

Bob: So, many of our participants over the years came to us and said, "We would really like to see this program expand to include Muslims." And of course, especially post 9-11, but even when we were active, Islamophobia was still a big problem. And to this day is a big problem. And so we were very supportive of that request and we thought it would be a natural outgrowth of our Building Bridges program to include Muslims.

But, seeing as how neither Diane nor I are Muslim, we had to go and find some Muslims and make friendships with Muslims and see if they would be interested in working with us in this endeavor. 

Don: You needed somebody who would share your vision. 

Bob: Exactly. And so we actually did that, quite proactively. I went searching for a local organization having to do with Muslims, and I found one called Islamic Networks Group, "ING." And we contacted them. We met the founder, Maha Elgenaidi, and we got to know them. And subsequently, we were trained and participated in their Interfaith Speakers Bureau, as a Jew and a Christian. We also participated in some sort of community service programs with Jews and Christians and Muslims.

And so we had the chance to meet other Muslims. And through those interactions, we met a couple of wonderful, wonderful Muslims who became our friends. And now, one serves on our board of directors, and others serve on our Interfaith Advisory Board. So in fact, we did accomplish what we set out to do. We did find Muslims. We made friends with Muslims. And they were very, very interested in working with us to expand what was Building Bridges to also include Muslim participants. 

Diane: Yeah. And I think just to add to that, once we had made some of those wonderful connections with Muslim friends, and keep in mind, that was intentional, that was proactive, as Bob says. You can't just meet those people without actually having the intent to go do it, and then spending the time. We, in order to test out this idea, we formed what we called then, the Tri-Faith Group. And we had four Muslims, the two that became our really close friends, and then two younger Muslims, another couple that they invited into the endeavor, along with four or five Christians and four Jews. And that group is the group that we took this idea of Interfaith Bridges, this new curriculum, to. 

We had formed our nonprofit in 2019, but this work started in 2018. We started working with this group and testing out this idea, and they were very enthusiastic and wanted to help us, and thought this was, both of these ideas, both the ability to deliver this program across the country and the idea that it could reach communities for both Muslims, all of Muslims, Jews and Christians, was really important. So that gave us the confidence that we were on the right track, that we had this kind of advisory board. 

They've now grown up into our Interfaith Advisory Board. And they've been with us during this whole period. We actually just had a dinner to celebrate the launch of Building Bridges Together and the Interfaith Bridges program last weekend. And, they all came, and we're very excited about the success we've had, we built together. So they're part of our core group. 

Don: And other than now being three religious traditions, instead of two, does the program look a lot like it did before? Or have you made some major changes to it? I mean, it's still involves dinners and conversations over dinner on certain topics? Is that how it works? 

Bob: Yeah, I think the structure is very similar. Because we added Muslims, we did tweak the program somewhat to make sure that Islam was definitely woven into the program. We expanded the program from five sessions to six sessions. So, it's now six, three-hour sessions. But the structure of each session is still pretty much the same as it always has been, beginning with a shared meal and discussion questions and small group discussions. 

And in between, instead of the sort of outdated videos that we used to have, we have created materials that sort of give an overview from the perspective of each faith that's involved in the Interfaith Bridges Program on the theme of the session. Each of the six sessions has a theme. So for example, session two is about holidays, food and fasting. And so after dinner, the participants see a presentation video that talks about holidays, food and fasting from the perspective of Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

Don: Now, you started out locally, and I know Diane, you mentioned that you want to be able to offer this program beyond just your local environs, but really across the United States. How does that work? What's your vision for that?

Diane: Well, of course, part of forming the nonprofit was we created a website and now we're reaching out to faith communities across the United States, where we have connections and our Muslim friends and our Jewish and Christian friends have connections, introducing people to this program. We're marketing this primarily to faith communities because when you've got a group of 24 to 30 people you need a place that's big enough to host them. Our programs have always been hosted, shared between the different local faith communities. 

So, our concept is that our churches, synagogues, and mosques that are interested in interfaith will have potential partners near them, that they can invite into a shared experience. And then those communities, and our program can be offered either bi-faith, so Christian-Jewish, Christian-Islam, Jewish-Muslim, right? So you can do it just for two of the three faiths, or you can do a tri-faith program with all three. And our communities will be able to determine who will be the facilitators locally for their program. So usually the clergy or an adult education committee, or some lay group in a mosque, a synagogue, or a church will determine that they want to do the program and who should be the facilitators for the program.

And then they invite their participants and off they go with our materials. So we deliver a full slate of materials, a soup to nuts program, including the program plan itself with each of the sessions laid out, and the videos, video presentations, as Bob said, but also maybe most importantly, a facilitator's guide that basically lays out for each of the facilitators what needs to be prepared ahead of time, how they recruit participants, how they market to participants, how they facilitate a session, and then for each of the sessions, kind of what needs to be done and how they make sure that they have a really engaging and welcoming program. 

So, a little bit of planning that's required. Obviously, you have to make sure that food shows up if you're going to have a dinner. You have to make sure that you've got a sign so people can find the place that you're going. You have to make sure that you know what the questions are ahead of time so you know what you're facilitating. But basically all of the materials are there. And it's just, if you follow the program that we've laid out, we've been able to prove that it actually works. 

Our very last session, the seventh time we offered the Building Bridges program, the predecessor program, we had just a precursor of the materials we use now that we provided in writing to the four facilitators, and off they went. And they did the whole program without any further assistance from us. They were able to understand exactly what was required for each session. So we know it works, and that seventh session was very successful. So now we're out just providing outreach to different communities across the U.S. and hoping to offer the program everywhere.

Don: That's great. Well, I think you answered my next question, which was going to be, what are your plans going forward, and how do you hope it will grow to reach more? 

Diane: Well, we actually have a vision beyond reaching faith communities. We're actually now working with a consultant to consider the feasibility of the Interfaith Bridges program for college campuses, especially small liberal arts colleges like the one, Don, you and I went to, the College of Wooster. And there again, you've often got a community of students from each of the three Abrahamic faiths. you often have a real mission on the part of the college to have engaging dialogue amongst different groups of students, a chance for people that age in their twenties to learn about people who are different from them. And so we think it's kind of a perfect match for college campuses too, but we'll see what our market research shows.

Don: It strikes me that the model you've developed is a model that might work for other areas, like race or gender or gender identity, age, socioeconomic differences. Do you see it that way too? Do you think people that are less interested in talking about religion and more interested in these other very important divisions within our nation and across the world could benefit from learning about the model you've developed and maybe trying to incorporate that in their own work of trying to bring people together?

Bob: Yeah. I think the way in which you dispel stereotypes and foster understanding between people is by using the approach that we apply in Interfaith Bridges, by getting to know people one-on-one, and over time. You can't do it in one hour. It has to be done over time. And, by getting to know an individual, or individuals in our case, then you know that stereotypes about a particular group, whether it be a religion or a race or some other group, those stereotypes have no validity because you can say, for example, "Hey, I had the opportunity to meet and engage with a group of Christians or Jews or Muslims. And none of them are like that?" Right? So substitute some other word for those groups, Jews, Christians, and Muslims. I think that this methodology works. We know that it works. And, I would say we're very busy doing what we're doing, but if somebody wants to adapt the approach to other groups, to bringing other groups together, fostering understanding, I would be supportive of that.

Diane: So we're actually, among other things, we're working with our synagogue, Congregation, Beth Am, on a lot of different initiatives related to this Interfaith Bridges program that we're offering through Building Bridges Together. But one of the things we've proposed to them is the idea of using this exact program with a church that's primarily African-American, like an African Methodist church, an AME church, locally.

And so you could actually use our program for more than one purpose. But I agree with Bob. I think that there are some programs like this. There's a thing called Living Room Conversations that you may have encountered that brings together conservatives and progressives to foster some kind of understanding about social issues of the day.

But the bottom line is we know that the most effective way to dismantle prejudice and bias is by forming relationships. And we're doing it for faith communities, because we think that these groups that are formed by these types of encounters, these as Bob says kind of longstanding, not just once and done, but, you know, several session, relationship-building encounters, they'll result in allyship. They'll result in people wanting to work together to do other projects.

And so I think, in part, our Interfaith Bridges Program has a life beyond just that initial program. We are providing our own alumni curriculum so that our Interfaith Bridges programs, they have a bridge to a next step, right? New programming that they can use for their alumni to bring people together.

But we think that they'll want to do other kinds of projects together too. But this model, dinner, discussion, and a chance for people to get to know each other in some kind of an intimate and meaningful way, I think it's the way that we can heal the world. 

Don: Well, that's a great note to end on. But I do want to ask one more question. It's one thing to talk about working together as members of different faith traditions. What was it like for the husband and the wife to work together to develop these programs? 

Diane: Well, of course, we love, both we love each other and we have grown in our respect for each other's faiths over time. I think we've learned a lot about each other's faiths and we really have an abiding respect for each other's faiths. But, you know, as you say, Don, we spent most of our working life not working together. Right? We were off in our own offices doing our own thing. We have spent the last several years working on this project together. And for the most part, it's really a joy. If you get us starting to talk about this, you didn't hear it so much today, but we finish each other's sentences. So we really do believe the same things. And for the most part, I think we really enjoy it. 

Now, there could come a time when one of us, like me, has a question about technology, and somebody like Bob wants to explain the technology in a way that I'm not quite understanding. And so there's still those little sparks of tension that come up in a family when you're trying very hard to get something done and you are not speaking the same language. 

Don: In other words, you're still a normal married couple. 

Diane: We are still a normal married couple, but one thing I will say is that when it's all done, we know we love each other. And we know that we're working on a cause that we both believe in. And that helps keep us smiling, even when we've got a little bit of friction in the moment. 

Don: So, the program now is Building Bridges Together. And where can people go to learn more, get more information about it? 

Diane: The program is called Interfaith Bridges. The nonprofit is Building Bridges Together. And our website is at www.buildingbridgestogether.net. And I do hope you'll come and visit. I am actually writing a blog every few weeks on a topic related to relationship building and building bridges across difference. So it would be fun to have people check that out.

Don: And I'll have the URL in the show notes for this podcast to make it easier for people to find you. 

Well, thank you both very much. Bob, did you have something? 

Bob: Well, I just wanted to say, if you're listening to this podcast and your interest is piqued, and you think, "Oh, I'd like to learn more. Maybe my faith community would like to do an Interfaith Bridges program." What should these people do? They should go on the website and contact us and we will get back to them and speak with them and answer all their questions. And we'd be more than happy to work with them to hold the Interfaith Bridges program at their faith community. 

Diane: Yeah, our whole goal is to do these programs in a way that's really easily implementable. So, I think we're eager to talk to people about it and get them started building bridges. 

Don: Well, I'm very inspired by this. I think our listeners will be as well. At a time when there seem to be so many divisions in our national fabric, so much anger, hate, it's great to hear about a program that actually is designed to bring people together and help promote, understanding, and relationship in a very meaningful way. So thank you. 

It's also important, I think, to note that you're both doing this as kind of your second career. And I've been giving a lot of thought to and reading a lot of books about second-half-of-life issues, and you guys are right on. I mean, life doesn't end when you retire from the job you've had for decades, but there are opportunities to make the world a better place even after traditional retirement. And you have jumped into that with all four feet in a very meaningful way. And I'm sure that the work you're doing is going to do a lot of good for the people who get to experience it. 

So, thank you both for taking the time for the podcast. And, Diane, I know I'll keep seeing you at College of Wooster board meetings, and Bob, I hope I'll see you at those meetings too. And it's just been great to spend this time with you. So, thank you very much. 

Bob: Thank you. Thank you, Don. 

Diane: Thanks, Don. 

Bob: Thanks for the opportunity to participate.